Episode 52 – Esko Cate (Vietnam)

This podcast audio has been transcribed by an automatic transcriber.

Fred Rocafort  0:07 

Global law and global business go hand in hand, but never seem to keep pace with each other. The importance on the global stage of developing and developed nations waxes and wanes, while consumption and interconnectedness steadily increase all the while laws and regulations change incessantly requiring businesses to stay nimble. But how do we make sense of it all? Welcome to Global Law and Business hosted by Harris Sliwoski International Business attorneys. I’m Fred Rocafort.

 

Jonathan Bench  0:37 

And I’m Jonathan Bench. Every week, we take a targeted look at legal and economic developments in locales around the world as we try to decipher global trends in law and business with the help of international experts. We cover continents, countries, regimes, governance, finance, legal developments, and whatever is trending on Twitter. We cover the important, the seemingly unimportant, the relatively simple and the complex.

 

Fred Rocafort  1:02 

We hope you enjoy today’s podcast. Please connect with us on social media to comment and suggest future topics and guests.

 

Esko Kate is an American attorney licensed to practice in Washington, Oregon, and Vietnam. A native of Seattle, Esko utilizes his ability to communicate in both English and Vietnamese to assist companies and individuals with a variety of legal issues ranging from foreign direct investment projects to cross border commercial transactions. Esko is currently working for the German city Office of Vietnam international law firm, or VILAF, which is a full service business law firm that has been operating in Vietnam for over 20 years. Esko Welcome to Harris Sliwoski, Global Law and Business.

 

Esko Cate  1:56 

Thank you. And thank you for having me,

 

Jonathan Bench  1:58 

Esko, on this podcast, we consider any international experience to be interesting. But there must be something special about being in Vietnam of all places at this moment in time. Both Fred and I spent time in China before things began to sour. So we’re familiar with the kind of energy that Vietnam is transmitting at the moment. So can you tell us what it’s like to be in a place that’s constantly coming up in conversations around the world?

 

Esko Cate  2:19 

It’s very, very exciting to be here. Right now, this is a place with a lot of energy. rapid growth. As you know, I think something that’s really interesting here is that a lot of the changes that we’re seeing are very positive, both economically and socially. So economically, I think that that’s a side that gets more press. Economically, there’s new business, there’s a lot of investment going on here. And so to go along with that what you’re seeing is on the ground here is new businesses popping up all the time, you see a lot of startups, a very strong startup community. And also just established businesses from abroad and moving here. All of that is a kind of increasing the standard of living for the citizens here, which I think kind of helped push. The second thing that we’re seeing a lot of progress here with, which is social development. I came here the first time in 2014. And even since then, it’s just the shocking amount of difference. You can see, there’s so much more education about health, and especially food safety, as something that’s really, really, really developed. Another thing that I’ve seen here that’s really exciting to be part of is education and environmental awareness. They’re starting to see a lot of businesses here doing, you know, small things, right, they’re they’ve stopped using plastic straws, they’re starting to use paper straws. And that’s, that’s really exciting. Another thing that’s happening a lot here is, as far as social development is going is the promotion of outdoor activities in athletics. So we’re starting to see a lot more bicycle clubs, running clubs, things like that, which is all of that put together makes it a really, really exciting place to live and a really exciting place to work.

 

Jonathan Bench  4:07 

I like to call that the fat curve. Right. So you’re you’re pushing down Vietnam is now now pushing down the fat curve instead of up the fat curve, right?

 

Esko Cate  4:14 

I think so. You know, it’s kind of interesting, because I think that all these changes, they’ve been implemented pretty smoothly you like we talked about it developing rapidly. And I think sometimes that can have a kind of jarring effect on the population. But I think that in particular Vietnamese people, culturally, they’re very adaptable. And so as things change, they are pretty open to the new ideas and they’re willing to adopt something new and try something new, which has been really, really helpful in getting just adopting all these changes smoothly without any hiccups or without having a lot of pushback.

 

Fred Rocafort  4:57 

That’s very interesting. Esko, let me ask you, what is it like to work in Vietnam as a foreign attorney? Perhaps you can tell us about some of the matters on which you’re working to get a flavor of what you’re what you’re doing these days.

 

Esko Cate  5:11 

Sure. working as an attorney here is also pretty interesting. It’s been my life really quite interesting since I started working here. I guess as an initial matter, you need to know the legal market here in Vietnam isn’t that big yet? It’s like in the US, it’s a pretty sizable industry. And so that’s coming from that to Vietnam, where it just is not. There’s not that many attorneys, not that many foreign attorneys in particular operating here. That was kind of interesting. I think a lot of that is because Vietnam was not a very litigious society. So that’s an entire segment of the legal industry in the US, it just is not really not really applicable here. You do see some litigation, of course, but nothing to the scale is what we find in the US. The other thing that I found very interesting, particularly about working as an attorney here, and the legal industry here is that the attorneys, the foreign attorneys that are working here, are from all over the world. So there’s, there’s a few American attorneys I know that are working here, but I also know a lot of French attorneys, and some Canadian attorneys, some Australian attorneys. And that’s been pretty interesting, because, you know, the community is, I think, very similar to what you see in the bar in Washington state or something like that, where there’s events. But when you go to these events, you’re talking with people that have an incredibly different legal background, and just an incredibly different perspective on the way things are, which I found to be pretty interesting. Let’s see, as far as like, firm life goes here. That’s another thing that I found is quite different than in the US, at least for view off. It’s far more collegial and you find I’ve ever worked for before, it’s it’s really interesting, I don’t know if this is entirely about the culture, or if this is actually just the firm itself. It’s hard to say. But there’s a really big focus on to building and extracurricular activities for the attorneys outside of the firm. For example, our firm has a running club, although I guess it really should be called more of a triathlon club, because every week, we members of the club, it’s not compulsory, but there’s, like 30 or 40 members, and we have targets for distances for running or bicycling or swimming, which I’ve just never seen that really any firms, us. And it’s really promoted. Like it’s something that managing partners or members, and they’re, they’re very active in this, which I thought was really interesting. I think that it’s just a generally working here as a foreign attorney is pretty significantly different. Moving to your question about what kinds of matters I’m working on, primarily, what I’m doing here is working on foreign direct investment. As I mentioned earlier, in the podcast, there’s a lot, a lot of foreign investment coming into Vietnam at this time. And so that’s a lot of what we’re doing. It’s pretty interesting. It’s, like very interesting work. Like I said about the attorneys here, the clients are also from all over the world, we’re working with foreign entities from Scandinavia, or from the UK or from Korea. And it’s all kinds of industries that are coming in either setting up shop here, or we’re restructuring commercial loans or, or something like that, maybe acquisitions. And so that I’ve found to be extremely interesting, a lot less than there used to be. Prior to working as an attorney here, I heard that Vietnam was very closed pretty regularly when I was before I actually was actually working here. But I’ve come to realize that a lot of the sectors are more open now than before. Now, there will be restrictions, for example, in certain energy projects, that’s going to have to be public private partnership, or there’s going to be foreign, direct foreign ownership limits on certain in certain industries. An example is Vietnam is very protective of its fishing industry. So if you want to come in here and set up shop doing working in fisheries, you’re maybe going to have a little bit more of a challenge than if you wanted to come and do manufacturing or something like that. But I think by and large, it’s significantly more open than I originally thought.

 

Jonathan Bench  9:51 

So I’m curious on the collegiality aspect, it sounds like a great place to work, would you say and this kind of fits in with your explanation of The Vietnam society being less litigious than the US. Would you say that? This is because the Vietnamese tend to trust each other more? And do you think that’s because it’s been more insular than the US? Or do you think it’s something else? I’m just trying to figure out why it’s different. I love what makes people tick. Right? So I understand I understand a lot about the Chinese because I’ve spent a lot of years among the Chinese, but the Vietnamese haven’t spent much time among them. So I’m very curious what your thoughts are there?

 

Esko Cate  10:32 

That’s an interesting question. To answer directly, I think that it has a lot to do with their concept of like the family unit being really strong. I actually, I think this is similar with Chinese culture as well, although I haven’t spent much time with attorneys. So we’re kind of on the opposite, opposite sides of the coin here. But I think that because the concept of families really strong, they kind of carry that into work. Plus, it’s also just especially for veal off, it’s a really big deal. We’re working the same hours as when I was working in American firms. And so I think that is a big contributing factor. One more thing that I just thought of, is that the attorneys that I’m working with here, I think, are probably on average, 10 to 15 years younger than a lot of the attorneys I was working with in firms in the US. That is in part because the society here in general, is just younger, it has a much heavier, younger population. I think the US Foster, as I said, the industry here is like the legal industry isn’t that big, it’s still kind of new. So we have a lot of young attorneys, which I think helps with the aspects of just being able to participate in activities like that, having the time to spend on extracurriculars, etc.

 

Jonathan Bench  11:58 

So what’s a typical workday like for you in terms of time in the office time out of the office, compared to what you were doing in the US?

 

Esko Cate  12:08 

So I’m normally would say, I roll into the office, probably around eight to 830, somewhere in there. And I go home 730 to nine, somewhere in there. Compared to the US, it’s it’s pretty similar. I said, pretty similar. I think that generally in the US, we come in a little bit later, and maybe even leave a little bit later. But I’d say very similar.

 

Jonathan Bench  12:37 

Interesting. So let’s turn now to kind of a macro topic of the US Vietnam relationship. It’s extremely critical now, not just because of the common apprehensions about China. But it’s fascinating for us who were kind of taking this aspect looking at not that much time has passed since the Vietnam War. Do you see potential for strengthening of the US Vietnam relationship? And what people generally think about Americans are about foreigners in general.

 

Esko Cate  13:08 

And that’s that’s a really interesting question. Pretty fascinating geopolitical equation, the US China Vietnam relationship, both both just their bilateral relationships with either of those countries, and also the way it works together when you’re looking at all three parties involved. So I guess I need to check the most recent numbers to see exactly but I know US and China are Vietnam’s biggest trade partners by far, each one of them. Over the past three years, they’ve gone back and forth, as far as I know about who was number one. And number two, I think this year, it’s actually us is Vietnam’s number one trade partner for at least for 2020. But to go along with that, you also do you have significant tensions and frictions, you know, or over China’s activities in the South China Sea, or is the Vietnamese call it a name, or the ECC. They don’t call myself Tennessee. And but you know, and then also, even with the US, there’s a pretty significant trade deficit that’s come up in a lot of conversations recently. And then also in December, the US labeled Vietnam a currency manipulator. It’s a very, very interesting relationship. And so then when you add the salary relationship between China and the US to that kind of makes it a really very difficult to say, what’s going to happen as far as strengthening or like relationship strengthening or not strengthening. That’s going to be really difficult to I think, pretty difficult to predict. All the time. I see articles and I hear rumors about how trade ties are going to be derailed because of a deficit. But then, at the same time, you see the articles popping up. It’s like oh, US Vietnam, relationships have never been stronger. And they’re just going to keep increasing. And we’re gonna see we’re seeing more and more and more partnership ties. I think over the last year or two, especially over the last year, there’s been a lot of businesses that were previously manufacturing in China that decided to either diversify and set up an operation in Vietnam, or just entirely moved to Vietnam. So that’s another thing that’s interesting, because these are American businesses, by and large, that are doing this, as far as whether it will strengthen or not, I’m an American working here. So I would really love to see stronger ties. I think making a prediction is I wouldn’t say anyone’s guess there’s going to be some people have a better handle on exactly what’s going to happen. But I think that it’s very difficult to predict, talking about Vietnamese and us relationships or getting a nice perspective on foreigners. I just say that all the time I’ve been here I’ve never once felt any animosity from any Vietnamese isn’t related to my nationality, not once coming here. The first time, I was almost anticipating I was ready for to maybe have to deal with something like that. But it just never happened. I found all of these people that I’ve met to be very friendly, and I think quite curious about the world, which, which I think has really helped them with a form relationships in general, and also just helped them a lot with, I guess, increasing, increasing their industries that are tied to foreign countries.

 

Jonathan Bench  16:39 

It’s interesting, I was listening to an audio book just the other night about China, Vietnam relationships. And the author said China and Vietnam have been fighting each other a lot longer than then World War Two, right? We think, because because the US was part of the invasion of Vietnam, that that was a big deal. But you have to take into account hundreds and 1000s of years of history. Yeah, to really get the context for, for that cultural. I don’t know if I’d call it cultural animosity. But certainly the long, long history of that, I think, yeah, I don’t know, in the West, we don’t tend to think in terms of centuries, and millennia when we’re talking about history. Right. But in Asia, it’s much more common to think in those terms.

 

Esko Cate  17:18 

I agree. I agree. The history between China and Vietnam, is very, very long. And I think that there’s quite a lot of heritage that’s also inter woven, especially with Southern Chinese regions. There’s quite a lot of I think, just historical background that overlaps and is inter woven. And I think that that probably, as I’ve enemies, I can’t speak for how it alters the mindset, but I can’t I imagined that it has to have an effect.

 

Fred Rocafort  17:49 

We cannot have a podcast about Vietnam without bringing up COVID. And in particular, what appears to be a pretty good management of the situation by the authorities in Vietnam. What is your perspective from the ground?

 

Esko Cate  18:03 

Yeah, this is this is a really interesting question that has we here in Vietnam, we’ve been kind of speculating on why it played out the way that it did. First things first, the response by the government, and also the private sector to COVID has been incredible. From the very beginning. It was really quick. It was it was identified as a potential problem really, really early. And measures were put in place immediately. I think that what you see here about abroad, mostly, is the response from the government, which as he said, was very regulated immediately. It was Hey, okay, we’re going to lock down all karaoke clubs, we’re gonna lock down bars immediately that that happened within weeks, I think, the first week of first week of March last year, and then after that, it was like, pretty quickly, it was okay. We’re only going to allow restaurants to have takeout. And this was followed, right, this this lockdown was really followed. But that only lasted two weeks, I want to say maybe three weeks. And after that everything opened back up. I think that a lot of the reason why that was possible was because the private sector also got into it. As soon as the government has these measures implemented. You see every place of business implementing requirements that you need to be wearing a mask otherwise you’re not coming in. They had almost everywhere here has security guards at the door. Just it’s standard. They’re not I would say that there’s almost no violent crime. So they’re not trying to they’re really just often taking those issues of doorman or something like that. But every single one of these guys had a thermometer that they’re checking the temperature every single person coming into the buildings like in my office building, when we walk in We still have this, there’s thermal cameras, and they’re just sitting and checking every single person that walks in. So that was something that I think was extremely helpful. It wasn’t just the government, it was actually private businesses stepping up and saying, okay, we’re going to do our part to try and make sure that this doesn’t go anywhere. The other thing is that I think was really, really helpful for Vietnam, especially at the beginning, and probably still is, is wearing masks has been the default here long before COVID. Unfortunately, I think partially because of pollution. But it’s been what people have been doing long before they were required by government to do so. And so what you can see from that is, it was quick and easy to implement. It wasn’t necessarily so commonplace indoors before, but everybody already had them. Everybody already had masks. They’re like, okay, we wear these outdoors, we do wear these indoors. The other thing that I think is probably pretty interesting in curious about the effect of this is that Vietnam’s in the major cities. And actually, even in the smaller cities, the primary mode of transportation is open air motorbikes. So instead of having the majority of your population transported on subways, or trains, you have everybody driving around open air on their own motorbikes, which I think, I mean, if you’ve seen the videos of driving here doesn’t necessarily make for any more social distancing than if everyone’s on a trade. But you can see that I think that this was probably pretty helpful at the outset of controlling it. Since the initial outbreak of COVID, there’s been a few resurgences, I think, three, we’ve had a few spikes, and those areas are locked down. It’s immediate. And when something like this happens, the population knows really quickly, because the concept of medical privacy is not nearly as strong here as it is in the US. So when there’s a new COVID case, it’s published by a former student, like all media outlets, who this is where they’re from.

 

And so that has, I think, enabled contact tracing to be really easy. Everybody can be like, Oh, I went to all of those where I was at this restaurant that this guy was at three days before he tested positive. Okay, so then they are able to get a test, which I think that’s also been particularly helpful. And again, just, I think that everyone realized, possibly because of how geographically close Vietnam and China are, this is seriously something that if we don’t take care of this, now, this can be a really big problem. And so because of that, our lives this last year, while it’s been different, haven’t really been drastically different. With the exception of probably, maybe two months of total lockdown time. Everything’s been open, completely open all bars, all clubs, restaurants, we can go sing karaoke, you’re supposed to have social distancing measures, and people have been observing those like, we stand a little further apart when we’re in line for something. But gatherings, family gatherings, those have been able to continue. And that has made it a pretty great place to be during this. What’s ultimately been extremely challenging for the whole world.

 

Jonathan Bench  23:33 

So assuming that Vietnam continues on its current trajectory, do you think it’s bound to offer more opportunities for foreigners? I mean, I’m listening to you and I’m imagining coming to Vietnam and thinking, well, there aren’t that many lawyers, maybe I can find my way, elbow my way into a place. Right. So that’s question a is that what kind of opportunities do you think there will be for those who might be considering I missed the China opportunity to try Vietnam? So that that’s part A, Part B is tell us what a typical weekend is? Like? Sounds like you have a pretty good handle on that.

 

Esko Cate  24:05 

So first of all, addressing your question about opportunities, definitely, I think that more and more of the economy here is becoming integrated with the world which is creating new jobs for people that have experience abroad. Not just in the legal industry, there’s there’s new jobs coming up in all kinds of industries here, which I think will create more opportunities for foreigners who wants to work here. As far as like a weekend or life just like as an expat in general here is what you make it really, and I guess, as an initial matter, you need to know that Finn is still I think, classified as a like, lower middle developing developing country. And the reason why is because while there are big material elicit areas where you can, where the standard of living is quite high. There’s also very rural areas here as well. And so if you are living in Washington city or an MLA, that’s going to be a lot different than if you’re living in a smaller city or township somewhere, so and what your life will be like is going to be a day in that difference. That said, even between cities like coaching and city or Hanoi, you’re going to find a big difference. So if you’re up in Hanoi, generally that’s that’s where the government is seated. And you’ll find that the city there is a little bit more of a conservative is a little bit more conservative, in general, things close earlier. And I think that people are a little bit less outgoing, it’s just their culture to be a little bit less, a little bit less outgoing. If you’re in house, human cities a lot more crazy, a little less quiet, so long, so but you are going to be able to find maybe a little bit more afford IV fluids here than you would if you were living up in Hanoi. That said, there’s communities for almost every kind of expat, here. So it doesn’t matter if you are Korean, or if you’re Japanese, or if you are from Australia or UK, there are, there’s, I’d say there’s a pretty good community for every every nationality of expats here. And so inside of that, you’re going to find restaurants that will serve any kind of food you want from anywhere in the world. And as I mentioned earlier, there’s been a lot more of a push recently for extracurricular activities. So it’s, especially probably in the last two or three, probably the last two years, you, you’ll really be able to participate in a lot more outdoor activities, bicycling, you can go mountain biking, if you want, if you’re into riding dirt bikes, okay, now there’s trails for this, if you’re interested in theater, or Symphony, opera, whatever, that that all exists. Now, that’s all you can, you can have a life where you can participate in these things if you’re interested. So, as I said, like, I mean, obviously, for some of these things, they’re important. So the opportunities and selection isn’t going to be as good as staying somewhere else in the world. But it’s all here. Now.

 

Fred Rocafort  27:35 

One thing I wanted to ask you about is do do you see a difference in attitudes between North and South Vietnam? And to what extent or perhaps what I really want to get at is do you do you see the impact of the returning exiles or, or the families of those folks who, who left South Vietnam, or now going back to South Vietnam, to open businesses and live there, you see that as having a major impact and marking differences with with things up north, which, to me has always seemed a little closer to China, a little more, a little more communist, if you will, how do you what what’s your perspective on that?

 

Esko Cate  28:29 

That’s actually a really interesting question was something I hadn’t considered before. But I think it’s quite valid. And this is just anecdotal. But just from my experience, a lot of the Vietnamese that I’ve met that are born in the US to Vietnamese parents, it is like you said their parents would go through us as a result of the Vietnam War. And then these guys have now come back. And actually, with the exception of two people I know, who are American born Vietnamese, they all own bars and clubs here. So you’re absolutely right, that it’s something that it’s an experience that they could get in the US and then bring back here, because prior to a few years ago, there were not that many Western style bars. There were of course, bars, not that many, there wasn’t that many cocktail bars, craft breweries also is another thing that I’m starting to see a lot, a lot more of here. that only happened in the last five years. So geographically speaking, it would make sense to me, right? Actually, I think almost all of these guys have family here in the south. So when they came back, makes sense that that’s where they’re going to go to. I think the other thing too, is just how cheap The city is been kind of the hub for economic activity for quite a long time. So if you wanted to set up something like this, the opportunities are better, I would say down here in the south. As opposed to going up to Hanoi.

 

Fred Rocafort  30:02 

Well, Esko, this has been a fascinating conversation. I have really enjoyed it. Before we bring the the podcast to an end, I’d like to ask you for any recommendations you might have for our listeners,

 

Esko Cate  30:16 

I think primarily here. Travel is, is what’s the big driver, and it’s, it’s worthwhile. Traveling in Vietnam tourism in general is really, really incredible. country has what 2000, over 2000 miles of coastline. So there’s a lot of beaches, and a lot of beach cities and small beach towns that you can visit that are vary quite a lot from being extremely developed to full sized cities on the beach, to being very, very small towns that are just fishing. So if you’re trying to get off the beaten path, you can handle that. The other thing is, big country also has mountains and really beautiful, beautiful mountains. That’s actually something I have recently, I hadn’t really explored much until this year. Earlier this year, I took a trip with my team from Vila off, we went up to the mountains in the north. And then I was I was pretty blown away. It was everywhere, and you’re looking around and everything just looks like a postcard. It was pretty shocking. So I think that if you have the opportunity right now, I think all travelers, there’s there’s a significant travel restriction, I don’t think you can come into the country at this point, due to COVID restrictions. But once that lifts, I would recommend that everybody got it and just take a trip. It’s totally worth it. You can spend some time moving around. I think the other thing is food. So if you enjoy if you enjoy food, this is a great place for you. Quite a quite a variety of cuisine, seafood, whatever you want to have. And it’s pretty renowned by a lot of food critics. Like Anthony Bourdain was a huge fan here, and I understand entirely why.

 

Fred Rocafort  32:03 

Thank you for that. Jonathan, what about you?

 

Jonathan Bench  32:06 

My recommendation this week is a Netflix series that came out last fall. It’s called the Queen’s Gambit. And a friend of mine who I I often check in with and see what he’s been watching because I trust him. I said, What is this series about? He said, it’s about chess. That was all he said. And I wasn’t smart enough to ask any follow up questions, right. But I played chess as a kid. And so I thought, alright, I’ll look into it. And it’s actually quite a bit of fun. It’s a it’s a coming of age story about a young girl who turns out to be a chess prodigy. And based on a 1983 novel, the same name. Quite a bit of fun. You know, if you’re even if you’re not a real chess aficionado, it’s a lot of fun to see the strategy growing up in an orphanage in 1950s. She this orphanage drugged the kids right gave them uppers and gave them downers. And so she’s she ended up you know, addicted to drugs. And so it’s it’s a lot there a lot of interesting twists that you wouldn’t expect me if someone tells you Hey, there’s a series about chess, you should check it out. Right? So quite quite a bit of fun, captures a lot of the Cold War, Cold War feel as well, because the top Russian players at the time are top players in the world were Russian. And so she eventually ends up playing against one of them. So it was just fine. You know, kind of you get the vibe from the 1950s in the US as seen through the lens of of chess culture. So I think they’re only seven episodes. certainly worth some time. If you’re interested in chess, you’re interested in the 1950s or you’re interested in the vibe during the Cold War. So recommend that, Fred, what about you?

 

Fred Rocafort  33:46 

Thanks, Jonathan. My own recommendations this week is a series it’s originally a series produced by the BBC but it’s available on Netflix and I think that’s how most people are becoming acquainted with it called the serpent. It’s absolutely fantastic. Brought back many good memories of Southeast Asia. There’s actually no direct Vietnam content in the series although the The story takes takes place against the backdrop of the Vietnam War there’s so there’s a connection there. But it’s it’s a it’s a fantastic series. Excellent acting, really fascinating story really, and lots of international connections, which is what we love on this podcast with that. So I’d like to thank you once again for for being our guest really enjoyed it and look forward to having you again on our podcast. Thank you.

 

Esko Cate  34:42 

Looking forward to it and thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it.

 

Jonathan Bench  34:47 

We hope you enjoyed this week’s episode, we look forward to connecting with you on social media to continue discussing developments in global law and business. This podcast was produced by Harris Sliwoski with executive producer Madeline Williams. music composed by Steven Schmidt. Tune in next week for another episode. We’ll see you then.

 

Transcribed by https://otter.ai