The large-scale shift to telework brought on by the COVID-19 pandemic is prompting businesses around the world to explore new avenues to engage with clients and friends. Harris Sliwoski is no exception, and we are happy to provide this podcast series: Global Law and Business, hosted by international attorneys Fred Rocafort and Jonathan Bench.

In Episode #42, we are joined by David Knapp, co-founder of Ornavera and Director at Togram. We discuss:

  • David’s move from Wausau, Wisconsin to Asia, where he has lived and worked for over three decades, starting in computer programming, then on to sales and executive positions.
  • David’s experience as the president of Motorola Vietnam at the onset of the cellular phone era.
  • Embedded software’s role in agricultural technology.
  • Significant agricultural development and specific goals in Asian countries, including Singapore’s goal to have 20% of its vegetables grown in homes by 2030.
  • Ornavera’s technology’s role in helping farmers better understand the soil temperature, electroconductivity, moisture, and mineral content.
  • The future outlook for agricultural security and productivity in Asia and globally.
  • Reading, listening, and watching recommendations from:

We’ll see you next week when we sit down with Nadja Vietz from Monereo Meyer Abogados to discuss recent developments in foreign direct investment (FDI) in Spain.

This podcast audio has been transcribed by an automatic transcriber.

Fred Rocafort  0:07 

Global law and global business go hand in hand, but never seem to keep pace with each other. The importance on the global stage of developing and developed nations waxes and wanes, while consumption and interconnectedness steadily increase all the while laws and regulations change incessantly requiring businesses to stay nimble. But how do we make sense of it all? Welcome to Global Law and Business, hosted by Harris Sliwoski International Business attorneys. I’m Fred Rocafort.


Jonathan Bench  0:37 

And I’m Jonathan Bench. Every week, we take a targeted look at legal and economic developments in locales around the world as we try to decipher global trends in law and business with the help of international experts. We cover continents, countries, regimes, governance, finance, legal developments, and whatever is trending on Twitter. We covered the important the seemingly unimportant, the relatively simple and the complex.


Fred Rocafort  1:02 

We hope you enjoy today’s podcast. Please connect with us on social media to comment and suggest future topics and guests.


Jonathan Bench  1:22 

Today we are joined by David Knapp, co founder of Ornavera and director at toe gram. David has over 30 years of management sales and operations success at startups and mmcs. Throughout the Asia Pacific region. David has held senior positions in the IT telecommunications and supply chain services sectors. Some of David’s roles have included Wind River systems, Motorola, Javi global solutions, satellite systems, tandem computers, and EDS electronic data systems. David has significant experience selling and delivering complex products and solutions, creating high level alliances with customers, government officials thought leaders, market movers and business partners. He has lived and worked in Tokyo, Hong Kong, Melbourne, Sydney, Hanoi and Singapore. He currently resides in Singapore with his wife and two teenage daughters. He has a degree in economics from the University of Chicago. David, welcome to Harris Sliwoski Global law and business.


David Knapp  2:19 

Thank you. Good to be here.


Fred Rocafort  2:22 

David, welcome to the show. Just before we went live, we were talking about Singapore and Hong Kong, both of us have have spent quality time in Asia, although you’ve been there for for longer than than I was. So please tell us more about your career in Asia. What took you there? What did you go looking for? What did you find? And of course, where were you?


David Knapp  2:48 

Well, I that could take up most of the half an hour. So I’ll try to keep that short, right out of college I had a job in, in Chicago with a theater group. My first job was to be a road manager there. And we traveled to the Eastern Bloc, and that was in the days of the Cold War was still going on. And I managed to get across the Berlin Wall and travel through East Germany into Poland and spend some time there. And I was dealing with a lot of people who didn’t speak English. And I was trying to get a job done to construct a set on a stage for a theater group that was performing. And it was about six to eight weeks of traveling through Europe. And I realized then that I really wanted to work internationally. So I went back to the United States and continued working in the regular job until I got a chance to to go overseas. My sister was living in Japan at the time I was working in Los Angeles, and not very happy in a job I had there. And she just sort of tongue in cheek said why don’t you come live with me in Tokyo. So I literally quit my job the next day, had a big yard sale, got rid of everything, packed a duffel bag and bought a one way ticket to Tokyo. And that was early 1985. And I haven’t been back since. So in Japan, the only thing I asked for was that I would never teach English. So I got my first job at a marketing company that did business with Western companies that were trying to establish in Japan and Japanese companies that were trying to establish business overseas. And I did that for a few years. One of the customers that I worked with was EDS, electronic data systems. They had just set up their offices in in Tokyo and I did some consulting work for them and they offered me a job and that was the beginning of my tech career. Back in those days EDS had a intensive training program, where they taught people how to program computers for companies in 10 weeks, and I went through this program in Dallas, and they subsequently sent me to Memphis Burn to work on a computer project for Holden’s Motor Company. Long story short, I spent about 18 months in Australia, the next phase of my life was to move up to Hong Kong, where I spent the next eight years working for eds. And eventually joined Tandem Computers as their marketing manager. I went from programming to sales sort of naturally, I think people realized that I was a better customer guy than I was a programmer. So I moved into the marketing and sales organizations at EDS, and then Tandem hired me as their marketing manager. tandem then, eight years later moved me to Singapore from Tandem joined a billing and customer care company, they sold a software solution to cellular providers. And I helped them start up their business in Asia, I worked for them for a couple years, then Motorola hired me. At Motorola experienced a lot of interesting things that that was the beginning of the cellular era. And we were really making a difference in people’s lives. Because we were rolling out cellular infrastructure across Southeast Asia. And, you know, in addition to spending my first few years marketing, 3g Solutions, then moving to Sydney for a couple years to work on a project down there. My best I think, and favorite job at Motorola was I ran Motorola, Vietnam for for three years. And that was in the area when, you know, our engineers would go to a village, put in an install a base station, and the village would throw them a party in the evening, because they were connecting them to the outside world. So you really get the feeling that you are making a difference in people’s lives in regular people’s lives. So I did that until 2008, when I moved back to Singapore. And that’s where I’ve been, I left Motorola work for a brief time at a company called Javi. Global Solutions, which is a supply chain services company essentially did all the packaging and a lot of supply chain services for McDonald’s.


And after that, I joined Wind River for a few years as their head of services. Wind River is an interesting company, it does embedded software, which is essentially the firmware or the software that makes the printed circuit boards run so that you can program applications on top of on top of that, I left Wind River in 2015. And I just decided to do my own thing. After that. And with I founded a company called Togram. It does business development services for companies that are trying to get into the Southeast Asian market. And basically, I sell stuff for other people. And some of my customers have included a company that made pallets out of waste plastic, a company that does holograms, that it’s called Art Media. And they have a hologram solution. They basically put people live on a stage remotely and effectively. It’s pretty cool company. And recently, I’ve started doing a little bit of work for a building management software company that effectively helps people take control of the electronics and air conditioning in their buildings and saving energy. So that’s where I am now. And I’ve also, I guess the reason we’re talking here is I founded a company called Ornavera. With a few other guys, I was doing some work for another company that was selling sensing devices for agriculture and their sensing devices were very basic. And they provided data on a screen. That company subsequently downsized significantly. And one of the guys that I was working with in the United States, he and I said, Hey, and I think we should we should give this another shot. Because what we saw in some of the customers that were interested in this product was very promising, and we thought we could do a better job of it. And so we founded the company, and that’s what we’re here to talk about today. I guess.


Jonathan Bench  9:26 

We have to mention, of course, David that you and I are fellow Wisconsinites. Right. You hail from you hail from Wausau I hail from from Platteville. So that’s a that’s a pretty fun thing for Midwest guys to connect again over discussions about Asia.


David Knapp  9:41 

Yeah, I have many small world stories. I actually met another Wisconsin guy at a South African friend’s home and it turns out this guy was best friends with my next door neighbor when I was growing up. There’s a lot of good Wisconsin stories.


Jonathan Bench  9:56 

Yeah, it is great. So let’s talk for a minute about embedded software, I have a couple of brothers in law who are in, in the embedded software arena. So I know a little bit about it more, maybe more than the average person, but I’d love to hear you explain it more, since you’re a marketing guy, you should be able to explain it in terms that we can all understand. So a little pressure on you there. And then if you can talk about how, you know embedded software, how that fits into the world of electronics, and of course, now ultimately, agriculture for you.


David Knapp  10:28 

Well, embedded software is a remarkably simple thing. I mean, you open up pretty much any electronic device, you see a green board printed circuit board with a lot of components on it. And embedded software essentially, makes all those components talk to each other, so that they so that they can perform a higher level function. You know, take your iPhone, or your smartphone, for instance, you know, it’s got a printed circuit board on it, it’s got chips, it’s got lots of components. Many of those components have some sort of central processing unit, and there’s more than one. And the embedded software basically sits on this board in the different components of the board, and enables them to talk to each other. It’s really as simple as that. And the code that is in those is kind of old. In a lot of cases, it’s very efficient machine level code that makes it communicate efficiently on the board. And essentially, then it all bubbles up into the central processing units operating system. And then that operating system is accessed by things like Windows and everything else.


Jonathan Bench  11:38 

So are we talking about DOS, are we talking about deeper in the system than DOS?


David Knapp  11:43 

We’re talking about deeper in the system than dos dos is the scent that that sits on the main central processing unit of your computing device. But the components themselves Say for example, you know, the clock, The clock that sits in the system, you know, somebody has to tell the clock, when to start and stop and check the clock. And that’s all done in the embedded software on the board itself. So it’s basically the operating system that tells the board or the device, how to operate. You tell the device, what you want it to do through dos or the operating system of your computer?


Jonathan Bench  12:26 

And how much has technology, the type that Ornavera is working on? Or even other types of technology? How much? How much have you seen technology permeate into agriculture? Right, I think of agriculture, you know, from my time in Wisconsin is, as you know, combines and planters, you know, harvesting machines, right? I don’t, I don’t necessarily think of those as synonymous with high tech. Well, it’s


David Knapp  12:49 

interesting I, again, I’m not a huge expert on agriculture. Strangely enough, what I’m what we’re trying to do it on are various try to apply a very specific type of technology and help farmers grow better. Farmers have obviously benefited from technology and a lot of different ways you look at your average combine or tractor, a lot of them now have GPS in them, that will tell you exactly how and when you plowed your fields or planted your fields, they’ll keep track of a lot of that data for you. A lot of the planting devices have sensors in them, when you’re planting your seeds for whatever crop you’re growing, it will put the seeds at the exact depth that you specify. It will tell you if your ground is properly aerated. There’s there’s a lot of technology that farmers have available to them. Most of it, I think, however, is sort of stand alone. So you know, they might have a very smart tractor, or they might have a smart irrigation system. But most of those things don’t necessarily interact with each other.


Fred Rocafort  14:05 

Well, now that you’ve issued that disclaimer about agriculture, I’m going to ask you more about agriculture. So because you still know a lot more than I do. Could you tell us about some of the more significant developments that you are you’re seeing when it comes to agriculture specifically in Asia? Are there specific developments happening with regards to certain crops? Things like corn, wheat soybeans, at the same time, what are perhaps some of the countries that are the leading edge of agriculture?


David Knapp  14:42 

That’s a big question, because there’s a lot of countries in Asia. I’ll give you some anecdotal examples here in Singapore. Obviously, there’s not a lot of arable land for people to grow. And what they’re trying to do is they’ve got an initiative Hear that they want to get to 20 or 30%, homegrown vegetables by 2030. And they’re doing that both indoors and outdoors, but primarily indoors. So there’s a big push to, for indoor growers here in Singapore, you’re seeing some of the same types of behavior in countries like Malaysia, Korea and Japan have been doing it for years, Japanese and the Koreans are both huge indoor growers, particularly strawberries, berries, and things like that. At the same time, you’ve also got countries like China, Thailand that are moving into the hemp growing business, I think you’ve had somebody on on your podcast, Glenn Davies, who’s quite active in that area. And that is really, I would say, probably the biggest boom market in Asia right now where people are starting to direct their efforts to growing hemp and cannabis, right. So one of the things that I’ve discovered is, as we found it, or never, I mean, we found it based on the principle that the growers need to know more about what they’re doing on their plot of land, there’s a lot of gut feel that that goes into growing, there’s a lot of technology that is applicable and growing. What we’ve learned here, not just in Asia, but around the world is that, you know, farmers that have been growing for a really long time can’t always explain why one particular crop grows better or worse than another. And what we wanted to do is try to give them the ability to use data to make decisions. And one thing that I’ve discovered is that people really don’t know a lot about and I know this doesn’t sound right, but people really don’t know a lot about what’s going on, really at ground level. In they’re growing. And that’s true here in Asia. And I think people are starting to be more interested in that, because of climate change, and the growing need for food.


Jonathan Bench  17:07 

So that’s, that’s fascinating to think about growers, obviously focusing on the health of the plant as they can see it above ground but not having data. And even to me as an outsider thinking what kind of data is available to the farmers using technology? I mean, are we talking soil content? Are we talking moisture content? Are we talking about how often they should be watered? And kind of automating that? Or how deep are we going in the data?


David Knapp  17:34 

Okay, good. Now, this is something I can really sink my teeth into. Because what we do at Ornavera is, again, we saw that collecting data is is the is the biggest challenge. There’s, you know, millions and millions and millions of acres of farmland in the world. There’s a lot of research that goes on in universities and various small areas. And as we were starting to research what we did at Nevada, you know, I was talking to a pepper grower in Vietnam, and this pepper grower was building or is building the first large scale pepper plantation ever, all the black pepper that you eat, is grown by smallholder farmers. And you know, people with one or two acres of land, just growing pepper, it’s aggregated, processed, and by companies like my customer, these people decided, let’s try growing pepper on a large scale. And they wanted to see how this works. We make a device or devices that have a number of different sensors on them, they sense how much sun is shining, and for how long and what type of sun is shining, you know, whether it’s in the what’s called photosynthetically active radiation spectrum of the of the light spectrum, that’s basically light that is good for growing plants, we make a soil sensor that detects how much water is in the soil, at the temperature of the soil, it also detects the electrical conductivity of the soil. And from that mathematically, you can extract more information, essentially you can you can determine what the mineral content of the water in the soil is. So that that’s a really important thing for people because there’s all kinds of fairly expensive devices out there that can do that. But it’s time consuming and you only get a result when you actually make the test which could be once a week once a month once a year. Our soil sensors are in the ground 24 hours a day taking these readings. So they can detect you know day to day variations in your in the mineral content of the soil and and the water content of the soil. We also make a device called the den dramaturge that detects very minute variations in the stem of a plant. And what that basically does is it allows you to see the heartbeat of the plant. If you remember your high school biology and transpiration, when the sun comes out, the plant opens up, and experts are transpires oxygen and water into the atmosphere. And if you can detect the plant stem, expansion and contraction on a daily basis, you can make sure that your plants heart is beating, if you have a long, prolonged period of cloudy days and your plant isn’t growing, the stem will weaken and shrink, and people need to be notified of that. And that’s essentially what we do. So why is this valuable to growers? it’s valuable because they’ve never really had that type of information. on a day to day basis grower will typically take soil reading once a week to make sure that what they think is happening is actually happening, we’re giving them that information on a day to day basis, so that they can be more comfortable with what’s going on in their in their growing environment. Furthermore, they can then start learning by looking back at the data after a year’s growth if you ask a grower. Now, why did you have such a great crop this year? Wow, we had a lot of sun. Well, how much sun did you have this year and and how do you know on a year to year basis, if you’re getting that amount of sun, you have to keep track and up till now people generally haven’t been able to do that, to be able to see really on a granular level what’s going on, in the very basic elements that help a plant grow sunshine, water, mineral content, temperature, and humidity. All those things are very important to plants. And everybody sort of has a rough idea of what makes a plant grow. What we’re giving them now is a very specific insight into what’s happening.


Jonathan Bench  22:11 

So it sounds like your technology you’re working on would be helpful to to those one to two acre farmers as much as it would be to bigger scale farmers. Is that right?


David Knapp  22:22 

That’s the whole idea. Really, what we want to do is make technology accessible to every grower. And of course, we can’t start at that level. Because you know, selling to smallholder farmers is a lot harder than selling to big growers. And we’re starting with big growers. But the idea and the customers that we’re working with, kind of get this, which is first we need to collect we need to establish the process of collecting the data and gaining the insights from it. And you know, a lot of the software and IoT systems around the market, they have really sophisticated graphs, and buttons on their software, we were trying to keep it as simple as possible because we we feel that the you know, the smallholder farmer, he’s not he is not going to be a spreadsheet jockey and they’re not going to understand how to create graphs in Excel. So we want to do the basics of that work for them and help them understand how they can start tracking the details of what’s going on in their growing environment. But yes, to answer your question, we really want to make this a tool that any any grower can use.


Jonathan Bench  23:39 

And I remember when we talked a few weeks ago, you had mentioned the software being able to help a farmer determine whether or not the coming frost or the coming snowfall would would require them to get the plants out of the ground or whether they’d be able to weather that storm. Can you talk a little more about that? I thought that was fascinating.


David Knapp  24:00 

Well, that was a cannabis grower in Colorado Actually, I don’t know if you were tracking Colorado weather this past autumn,


Jonathan Bench  24:08 

Every day, honestly every day. Yes.


David Knapp  24:13 

In early September, a freak snowstorm blew through Colorado. And one of our customers has a number of our devices in the cannabis outdoor cannabis plantation. And they were really concerned about okay, we have to make a call right now. We need to know if you know they kind of knew what the weather was going to be how far the temperature was going to go down how long it was going to snow for and then you know it was going to be 48 hours of snow and then it was going to be back to you know, September Colorado weather. So they did they had to make a choice as to whether to pull their crop out early and basically, you know, take it out before it was mature but save as much as they could or leave In the ground, perhaps suffered some damage, but let the plants grow to maturity. And they decided to leave them in the ground and monitor the soil temperature very carefully. And also the the plant growth. And, you know, they told us about this, you know, basically minute by minute they were watching the temperature and as soon as it got to a certain level, they’d hit, they’d hit the plants with a little bit of irrigation, they managed to save most of their crop as a result, and they got it in that way. And that really speaks to what we’re trying to do is we’re trying to give people databased reasons to make decisions, as opposed to looking in the sky reading the newspaper and saying, Wow, it’s gonna get cold, I wonder if my plants are going to be okay. And making their decisions based on kind of gut feel that they can see what’s actually happening and make their decisions on that basis.


Fred Rocafort  25:56 

Based on what you’re seeing, right, based on based on the experiences that you’ve had, how do you see the the reactions on the part of a farmers basically, I mean, I would imagine that at least in, in some countries, and in some areas, there might be a little bit of pushback against that. I mean, I’m not from from an agricultural region or myself, I’m a city slicker for sure. But but but at least from from my vantage point, there, there seems to be a certain mythology associated with with agriculture. And it seems that while there would be some farmers that would welcome technological innovation, that one would think that at least in some quarters, there might be a little bit of reluctance to, to turn back on the true and try it. Is this something that you’ve encountered in any way?


David Knapp  26:44 

Of course, yes, you know, anytime technology is introduced to a new industry or area, or a certain type of technology introduced, you’re going to get pushback. And the one thing you need to understand about me is, I’m not a farmer, I’m a salesman. And always have been, and we founded the company, because, you know, we wanted to start a business. But we also wanted to help people. And what we’re doing right now, is we’re looking for growers who understand that technology can help them, and they want this type of information. And they’ve over the last few years have discovered it’s really expensive to get from other means. And we’re making it a much more, I guess, accessible to them. So we’re looking for certain types of growers who say, yeah, if I had this data, it would be very valuable to me. And those are the types of growers we’re working with. You know, if somebody says, Well, I don’t think technology is going to help me that much, well, then you don’t sell to that guy. Right. And and we get some of that, but you know, and industry is the cannabis industry is a big one, a lot of people going into cannabis are, you know, x it guys are x business people, and they understand the value of data in giving themselves an edge, and they find it attractive. And those are the people that we’re that we’re working with initially, as time goes on. Hopefully, people will realize that having this type of information, having this type these capabilities, will can be can help any grower. And that’s how people adopt technology.


Fred Rocafort  28:23 

You bring up a good point, right? That, yes, this is a reality. I like the way you put it, rather than try to convince perhaps those who are more skeptical, right, you go for the ones that are that are already looking at the technology and saying, you know, this, this can help me, I want to take a step back and look at some big picture issues. And I’d like to talk about agricultural security, food security, based on your perspective. And in your experience, what’s your outlook on the future of food security in Asia? And perhaps more broadly, around the world? Are you fundamentally optimistic or pessimistic about the world’s ability to increase its agricultural production and ensure food security?


David Knapp  29:07 

I am optimistic. I think that it’s not just technology that’s gonna save people, if you want to use that terminology. It’s, you know, it’s human ingenuity. And it’s the desire to raise your kids with the right type of foods. I think food security in general, their safety of food. You know, there have been a lot of instances over the years. I remember when I first came to Asia, there were there were huge problems with manufacturers of food, who were putting chemicals into the food that weren’t good for people. Those companies get shaken out pretty quickly. And yes, there’s some collateral damage, but it typically they don’t survive in the marketplace. The people who do survive, are the people who generally do things right and are applying technology or other means to expand their ability to grow their crops. I think the biggest challenge we have for food security is probably global warming, because I think what’s going to happen in the future, and this is something I’m not necessarily so optimistic about is that the places where we grow, things are going to change. We grow corn in the Midwest, in the United States, what’s gonna happen when the planet heats up three or four degrees? Are we going to have to move all that production north to a cooler climate? Or is the type of corn that we grow going to change and all that our decisions, it’s going to have to be made, you know, as a government community and as an industry. So I think that’s where we have some challenges. But in terms of solving the problem, I think, mankind is has got the knowledge, and certainly the motivation to make that happen.


Jonathan Bench  30:48 

David, it’s been great to have you with us as the embedded systems guy morphed into a marketing role and and through your various ventures, I think my favorite, my favorite story from you today is hearing about your work in Vietnam, where his cell tower gets installed, and then everyone throws a party. I mean, it, it makes perfect sense. But it’s such a, you know, we’ve been steeped in technology in the west for so long that, that we forget that that was only 20 years ago.


David Knapp  31:18 

Interestingly enough, one of our first customers is this pepper grower in Vietnam. And you know, we bring our devices out to these guys. And we put them in the ground. And it’s the same kind of feeling to some extent where the the employees at the, at the plantation, I’ve gotten to know them personally. And they’re like, Oh, I’m the guy that’s bringing them more information about what they’re doing and making their jobs easier. So it’s, I’m feeling that a little bit now. And it’s, it’s given me a great feeling of deja vu.


Jonathan Bench  31:50 

Well, that’s great. Well, we always like to close our interviews with recommendations from you and Fred, and I’ll provide ours ours as well. So do you have anything that you’ve read recently, or listen to or watch that you think would be beneficial for our audience to check out?


David Knapp  32:06 

I read a lot. Lately, I’ve been reading a lot of nonfiction. Mostly political related, for obvious reasons. But I, I think, when you ask me for a recommendation, I go back to the old favorites. And one of my favorite writers, is it another Midwestern guy who decided to live his life overseas. His name is Bill Bryson. He’s from Nebraska. And he wrote a number of really great travel books. But then he started getting interested in in science, or he continued to be interested in science and started writing about it. He wrote a book called The Short History of Nearly Everything that I try to read every 10 years or so. And I just cracked it open again recently. And it’s just a wonderful book, because he talks about how much we’ve learned as a scientist, but also how much we don’t know and how much there is still yet to discover. And he does it with humor, and intelligence and insight. I love the book.


Jonathan Bench  33:07 

Sounds fascinating. I have heard of that before, but haven’t haven’t looked into it. So that’s a great recommendation. Thank you, Fred, what do you have for us?


Fred Rocafort  33:15 

Well, today, I’d like to recommend another podcast called the southern tour podcast. And those of our listeners who have some knowledge of Chinese history, especially Chinese history, will be familiar with the southern tour that was undertaken by Deng Xiaoping in the early 90s. And basically, this was a reaction on Doug’s part to the internal debate going on within the Communist Party regarding the future of reform and opening, especially in the years following Tiananmen Square. So the idea behind the southern tour was for done to give a boost to to reform efforts. And the podcast basically retells the story of the tour, but it also it goes a little bit beyond that it looks more broadly at the history of the main stops that dung made during the tour. It’s pretty well done. It’s posted by Jonathan Chatwin, and at the moment, I believe there are only four episodes at this point. One of them focuses on Beijing, the other one on one, another one on Shen Gen. And then the fourth one on Dongguan, I’m assuming there’s going to be at least one for Guan Jo and Julia at some point, but at the moment, only four of them. So good time to catch up and not let it pile up. Although it’s it’s very bingeable for sure. So again, the southern tour podcast, and it’s available on Spotify, Apple podcasts, and I’m sure other other platforms as well. What about you, Jonathan?


Jonathan Bench  34:57 

Mine is a less serious recommendation. Although it’s It is quite serious in retrospect. So I’m recommending the Cobra Kai a show on Netflix. It fits, it fits all of my nostalgia from 1985 whenever I saw for the first time, all of that, but also all of my mind now coming into middle age struggles with, you know, with body aches with personality, quirks, kids stuff, I mean, there’s a lot of interesting things. And so these characters that we grew up with, seeing them fight in high school. Now, they’re, they’re older, and they’re real people, and they have issues. And so the show does a really great job of plumbing into their backstories. And I think, you know, in the wake of, of the very tempestuous political season we just had, I think it’s very valuable as a social critique, and saying, hey, maybe the people you think, you know, you don’t know as well as you do. And maybe you don’t know yourself as well as you think you do. And so I really appreciate that ongoing critique of thinking, you’re giving me pause to reevaluate my own biases about people and about situations, right. And so and, and certainly, it’s a lot of fun. I mean, there’s a lot of irreverent humor. The the karate stuff is a lot of fun. And it’s season three just came out this month. So if you have a Netflix subscription, I highly recommend you check that out.


David Knapp  36:22 

My daughter is a huge fan of that show.


Jonathan Bench  36:26 

Yeah. For the teenagers and and the Middle Ages as well.


David Knapp  36:30 

Yeah, it’s it’s been funny if she’s because we watched the other Karate Kid episodes previously. And she started watching and I was amazed that she’s really gotten into it.


Jonathan Bench  36:41 

David, we want to thank you again for joining us today. We appreciate you getting up on your early Singapore morning. And we’re looking forward to perhaps connecting with you again in the future and seeing how Ornavera is doing and catching up on all things Asia.


David Knapp  36:56 

Thank you very much for the opportunity. It’s been great talking to you.


Jonathan Bench  37:01 

We hope you enjoyed this week’s episode, we look forward to connecting with you on social media to continue discussing developments in global law and business. This podcast was produced by Harris Sliwoski with executive producer Madeline Williams music composed by Steven Schmidt. Tune in next week for another episode. We’ll see you then.


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